>> welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the news that came this evening, nelson mandela has died at age 95. here is the president of the united states. >> at his trial in 1964, nelson mandela chose a statement from the dock saying i have fought against white domination and i have fought against black domination. i've cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve. but if needs be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die.

nelson mandela lived for that ideal and he made it real. he achieved more than could be expected of any man. and today he's gone home. we've lost one of the most influential, courageous and profoundly good human being that any of us will know in the short time on this earth. he no longer belongs to us, he belongs to the ages. through his fierce dignity and unbending will to sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, madiba transformed south africa and moved all of us. his journey from a prisoner to a president embodied the promise that human beings and countries can change for the better. the commitment to transfer power and reconcile with those who jailed him set an example that

all humanity should aspire to whether in the lives of nations or our own personal lives. the fact he did it all with grace and good humor and the ability to acknowledge his own imperfections only makes the man that much more remarkable. once said i'm not a saint unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying. i am one of the countless millions who drew inspiration from nelson mandela's life. my very first political action, the first thing i ever did that involved an issue or a policy or politics was a protest against apartheid. i would study his words and his writings. the day he was released from prison gave me a sense of what human beings can do when they're guided by their hopes and not by their fears.

and like so many around the globe, i cannot fully imagine my own life without the example that nelson mandela set. and so long as i live, i will do what i can to learn from him. to his family, michelle and i, tend our deepest sympathy and gratitude for sharing this extraordinary man with us. his life work meant long days away from those who loved him most. and i only hope that the time spent with him these last few weeks brought peace and comfort to his family. to the people of south africa who draw strength from the example of renewal and reconciliation and resilience that you made real. a free south africa at peace with itself. that's an example to the world and that's madiba's legacy to

the nation he loved. we will not likely see the like of nelson mandela again. so it falls to us as best we can to forward the example that he set, to make decisions guided not by hate but by love. never discount the difference that one person can make. to strive for a future that is worthy of his sacrifice. so now, let us pause and give thanks for the fact that nelson mandela lived who took history and bent the arc of the moral universe towards justice. may god bless his memory and keep him in peace.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. captioning sponsored by >> we begin our coverage with the death of nelson mandela wih the news by scott pelley. >> his mother named him holy sasha meaning troublemaker but later a teacher renamed his nelson. he moved to johanns percent.

he joined the national congress in the early 1940's devoting himself then to peacefully ending apartheid. then in 960, 69 peaceful protester were killed by the police in the infamous massacre. mandela came to believe that the only recourse then was violence. >> it is useless for us to continue talking peace and non-violence against a government -- on defenseless people. >> he was arrested in 1962 and later sentenced to life for sabotage and conspiracy. he served most of his time on robin island, the alcatraz of south africa. his fellow prisoner said mandela never let his spirit die. >> he worked on the premise that he would live to see the victory. he accepted that he may not live

to see the victory. but he did not doubt that the struggle would triumph. >> mandela was in prison for 27 years. then on february 11th, 1990, at the age of 71, he walked free. cbs news correspondent bob simon covered his release. >> the mandela limousine was a beat up toyota. the motorcade had to change several times because the approaches to cape town were jammed. >> often bishop desmond tutu said it made the man. >> a robust aggressive young militant, generous understanding person. >> i cherish the idea of a new south africa where all south africans are equal. >> in 1993, the person who freed

him declerk shared the nobel peace prize and the year after that mandela became south africa president. >> let that be for all, let that exist for all. let that be work, prayers, water for all. let us embrace god bless africa. i thank you. >> mandela chose to serve only one term. in the end, he came to personify struggle, a political prisoner who became president and saved his south african nation. >> he was so very easily have led our country down the road of retribution and revenge and we would have been up a creek. >> author maya angelo new mandela since 1960. >> nelson mandela represents the best any of us can hope for. he was a great man and i'm

grateful, the world is better for having him. >> so many people knew nelson mandela. we begin with bono. >> i've been working with nelson mandela pretty much my whole life, since i was 18. i was with the first anti-apartheid. the movement was very big because almost wrote the south african consubstitution in the college there. and his instruction to be that great generation, he made that incredible speech at trafalgar square where he said, the fight against extreme poverty is not

the task of charity. it's an act of justice. and that poverty like apartheid is not natural. it's man made. and you know, you must be that generation that takes that on. that's been my instruction book. and i suppose i got to know him over the years and received guidance and his wisdom over the years. and even those last moments, this incredible, even to go meet his maker, he'll decide. the man would stand up for an entire day in a courtroom to make a protest over the fact that there were no african blacks on the rugby team. and he wanted everyone to see that an older man could stand up and not have to sit down.

a genius of the high ground. people, i'm not sure if people under that he had an operation on his tear ducts because when he worked on robin island in the salt mine, the salt burned out his tear ducts. so this man, this figure that will be remembered not just in south africa, not just in africa but from china and asia, everywhere. a man who could move so many people to tears himself could not cry. and i don't know why that just really fixes me but that's defiance and humor. wicked sense of humor. what would you want to speak to an old man like me for.

and this may be too long for any kind of broadcast, but i was involved in a probably, i was involved with this idea called rock and roll and with great intentions to use music people and fashion people to raise money for his charity and children's charity. and a great friend mary campbell had gone horribly wrong in barcelona and about 400,000 people turned ought. they didn't understand or there was some confusion. a lot of people bailed from the project. a great man arrived. oh my goodness there's nobody there for him to make his speech. maybe they will be here by 8:00, you know. we'll wait for them. still there's hardly anybody

there. he has to leave. wait until 8:30. 9:00, sure enough there's more spaniards. in all of spain there was this confusion. i would walk out on stage, walked out and there was this huge hangar of a place empty. and he goes, he goes it is a great thing to have high expectations and i have high expectations of coming to barcelona. i'm just staring at the ground. he looks at me. you, have more than exceeded my expectations. that you should leave your house, that you should leave your life and come an old man and help him with his work is more than i could ever.

i am looking at this. is this the seating of 5,000. i'm looking out. it kind of feels nearly full. but i guess that's the way he saw the world. he was not taken aback. he was being real. he was grateful that even if he were probably at that stage, that was 10,000 people he wasn't expecting. >> it seem to me if there was not a word for dignity, nelson mandela would have defined it. >> you know, his name, birth name was olala which means troublemaker. it was given to him because he broke a tree. he was into mischief. i mean, i think desmond tutu,

there was mischief in those eyes. and they are. and i look, i think at a defining moment of all our lives was nelson mandela's freedom, in his demeanor and in his poetry is captive. it could be your boss, you know, whatever. whatever it is, fill in the blank. i heard of a real insight. i don't know if you know this, he got to nationalize the mines, you know, the diamonds, these you know so that the south african people would have those diamonds. they would own them not these

companies. and they said madiba -- he goes a lot more of them in the ground than we're letting on. what are you saying. he says well, diamonds are tightly controlled because we want to keep their value high. and it's kind of, it's a mysterious thing these companies know how to do it and we probably wouldn't be very good at it. and the people discovered they have valueless pieces. >> supply and demand. >> like that he just went okay. you know i guess that's why i so admire him, so admired him. just the pragmatic thing. no piety. absolutely no piety. >> and morgan freeman who played

him in the movie invictus. when he first mentioned that you should play him were you in his presence at that time. >> no but i was in south africa at the time. >> when did you first meet him? >> i met him after, right after he left the presidency. >> rose: to make the movie. >> he didn't have the rights. he was of course orchestrating all of my meetings with madiba. >> rose: that's what mandela's called. >> everybody in south africa called him that and everybody who knows him calls him that. i told him i needed to get to him and he organized the

meeting. i told madiba, i need to be able to see you as often as i can, get close and hold your hand. and he said of course. and we did over the years. i saw him all around the world and we would sit and talk. i would just watch him and lean it. >> rose: what did you see? >> the basic thing that you need order to play a living human being i think is what goes on inside. how much energy is needed to be that person. and with mandela, it's a very lower energy. he's very quiet. inside he's quiet. i learned that. he's commanding. he has most commanding presence

without being lordly. he doesn't walk into a room as nelson mandela, he walks into a room as madiba, as an orphan. he doesn't take the room, the room givers itself. quiet he's always been i think. when he first got into robin island and they issued short pants to everybody except to akmad, the one indian among them, he rejected his long pants and madiba said no, no, no, put them on. we're all going to have long pants. and then he said to himself, are hear going to call me mister. how did he do that? so he hears that a guard's child is sick. the guard comes to work and he

says good morning, how is your baby. is he all right, the baby. thing like that. you know, he doesn't feel like the big success that we all hold him up as. he thinks of himself personally, deep inside as a failure. because of his family life. he couldn't do both. >> rose: south africa became his family. >> yes. and so his obligations to his villaraigosa, to winnie, to his son, that it razed on him for days. and it infused his being with a sadness. >> rose: william ernest

hemly. >> yes. that poem was his favorite poem. as he explains, when he lost courage, when he felt like just giving up, lie down and not get up again, he would recite it. and it would giver him what he needed to keep going. >> rose: can you recite it? if you can't, there's some words. >> out of the night that covers me black from pole to pole. i learned it when i was in school. >> rose: did you really. >> yes. i think whatever god there may be for my uncomfortable soul. the circumstance i have not cloud around under fate my head is bloody but i'm bowed. beyond this place of rath and tear but looms the shadow and

the shade. yes the menace of the years shall find me unafraid. matters not how straight the gate and how punishment chars the; i am the master of my fate, i am the master of my soul. >> rose: this is a major cull moment -- magical moment in the history of this show to hear you do that. >> thank you. >> rose: he had it and he memorized it and it was his anchor. >> yes. >> rose: when the winds were at their worst. >> yes, yes. and he wrote this moment out and gave it out. and i think it served the purpose it needed to serve because when francois and the team built robin island, this poem played in francois' head. and i think he knew then that

not did they have to win but could. >> rose: the state department official. you got your ph.d. at oxford. and you had an opportunity to know people that knew mandela. tell me about them and tell me about the man that you learned about and then knew. >> well first of all charlie, it's great to be on this show. and the world mourns. a world away, a million years ago i was a student at oxford and did my thesis on radical politics in southern africa, and as a consequence, ended up meeting both white and black almost every one of nelson mandela's compatriots who worked with him in the struggle to make a multiracial south africa in the 1960's before he was arrested. the interesting thing is even years later, you'd meet these guys and they all led modest

lives in angela or on the outskirts of london or the united states. they talk about their experiences but when their time came to talk about mandela their gaze settled on something in the distance. everyone despite their etiology talked about them with a reference. what was interesting when they spoke about him, they rarely talked about his politics. they talked about him was his character as a person and how dominant a physical presence he was. people forget he loved sports, he loved boxing. he used to practice boxing in his jail cell. he loved to follow the races. fascinated by all global sport, followed it closely. want the guards to update him on various sporting events. rebel cricket tourists that would come from great britain. it was the human touch during periods of just unbelievable

stark, you know, hopelessness that keep the them alive. it's hard to believe since he's president. keeping that hope alive when there was no hope is a remarkable thing. hopefully something that can animate our world going forward. >> rose: first the presence though the physical presence. you said he had these huge hands. >> yes. >> rose: that were part of -- go ahead. >> i was struck, when i first met him, i spent a lot of time in southern africa. the first thing you realized about him, he was part of a noble family from part of south africa. and so when you first see him. he's much taller than the average south african. he's well over six foot tall and when he first got out of prison, despite the heavy labor and the hard times, he was ram rod straight and when you saw him it almost took you aback but when you focused on him he was

unusually fit and his hands were thinking. tony abbott was a former boxer in oxford, same look at the hands. he could get up at any minute and hit you with an upper cut. >> rose: what is it, you met a lot of leaders. he had what larger than most. >> one of my responsibilities when i was at the state department was i was the person that interacted when she was in her house arrest. what was striking about her frankly was she at one moment could be extraordinarily vulnerable, and there would be something about her that would be, you would just be drawn to her. but in the next moment, she could be tough when it was necessary, and i found the exact same thing with president mandela. he was deeply human, extremely

compassionate, very empathetic for people. his family, people around him cared how people felt, very unusual in politics as we know. but at the next moment, when he had to make the tough decision, he would make it. >> rose: i've often found among the leaders i've interviewed, a number of leaders over the years, and across the span, there was always, if they were a dreamer, if in fact they were men or women who had a sense of enormous compassion, there was at the heart of them, at the core a capacity to be as tough and secondly as analytical as anybody you ever met. >> yes. i like that, charlie. that's exactly what i saw in him. what was also interesting and you look at other leaders. i was always struck when we used to travel with president clinton. he had the common touch. he knew the people that worked the elevators that you know kind

of drove the cars that cleaned up the rooms after we left. mandela was exactly the same way. he knew that one audience was the person sitting across the table from him or meeting with the queen whoever but he also knew that the people behind the scenes facilitated the events were just as important. and he can be more open and compassionate and engage with those pea than he often was with the leaders that he met. and that's a remarkable quality. and frankly, i don't believe in any way that that was an act. that was who he was, really down to the core. >> rose: i've also found that the leader, and i think he represents the, obviously for all of us, represents the highest expression of courage and leadership and all the best qualities that you can imagine in a human being. the capacity to live as he had in prison and to come out with a certain sense of grace about it.

and the capacity for reconciliation. but also leaders it seemed to me have always had the ability to calculate risk and be willing to have confidence in their own capacity to overcome risk. >> yes. i agree with that. in a way when i interacted with him the most was right out of prison getting ready to run. he was aware in a way i've rarely seen political leaders in a such a difficult situation. he knew the tolerances, right. what the system could manage, and he was as effective speaking to his own supporters about what was going to be necessary to accommodate, to live in a new south africa as he was to international investors or to whites that were worried about the future. one other thing, charlie, i know we're, but the other thing i would say about him is, you

know, and again you see this in other leaders. just beneath the surface, there was a little bit, a little touch of loneliness to him. you could kind of sense it that you know, surrounded by a lot of people but the closest relationships, that handful of people he wasn't with them sometimes, he was in prison during a difficult period, a lot of hard changes. there was some alienation there. i think that marked him and so that incredible combination of of being optimistic outwardly focused but when the cameras were down when he was sitting alone having a cup of tea. >> rose: the burden they had there as well. >> yes, that's right, that's right. >> rose: as we are at this time, we remember stories, and i was sharing with your story you

already knew which said something about how stories happen, which is that he went to london and to buckingham palace to see the queen and expect him to say for 30 minutes and he stayed for more than two hours. and later someone who is with him, i guess when he got a call from the queen and he took the call and talked on the phone and the story goes that when he hung up the phone and said good-bye your majesty, his friend turned to him and said well what did the queen say. and she said, please call me elizabeth. and there were only three people in the world that called her elizabeth. i guess her sister and husband and someone else, and nelson mandela. the other story is this sense that we all know is about how he at the time of his inaugural had his jailers sitting there in the audience, and you would be familiar with that. >> yes. >> i mean, what was remarkable,

and many of the people around him initially were actually uncomfort many -- uncomfortable and thought this gesture would be misunderstood. but some of the people who imprisoned him, some of the people that on a daily basis kind of subjected him to just terrible physical labor for years were there in the front row. and what was astonishing, if you see the exchanges during this period, there was a familiarity and a respect that had grown over time between them. and so in the end, in a sense, it was almost as if mandela was their jailer, right, even though he was in prison. he was the one that almost looked after them and they looked to him for grace which he delivered in a remarkable way. and frankly they were comfortable and honored to be

there and he was respectful of them. it was from those early associations. remember the guys that came to power with mandela, the armed wing of the african national congress was called, the spirit of the nation. these guys were warriors and they've been fighting underground against the apartheid regime. and so they were in no mood to immediately go to a situation where they're sitting down and breaking bread with the former enemy. just look how hard it is here in the united states. and mandela insisted that these people be treated with respect. he kept on members of the previous administration on the security detail. he insisted that the military integrate in a way that white military officers remained in power. it was remarkable, and to tell you the truth, his aides

initially were profoundly uncomfortable and were worried he was on the wrong foot when he got started. >> rose: this was famous also that came out of the movie invictua played by morgan freeman. >> rugby until that point was considered a white sport in south africa. african american. african, south africans did not play rugby very much and those who did were looked on a little bit with contempt. he championed that team, he met with the captain. he inspired him. i have to say personally when i think of a theme that has inspired me in a movie perhaps more than any other, i really encourage people to look at it. look at the sit down between the rugby captain and morgan freeman. the subtle dance as they initially engage each other around leadership, about how to be make, how to motivate a group

of people during impossible set of circumstances. it is a, it is the best example of leadership i've ever seen in a movie. and i have to say, you know, what's fascinating about himç0hs that there was a period in his life where he did study and think deeply about marxism, right. there was a period where the resistance movement in southern africa was about, you know, forces of history and deeply animated by support from the outside. and the great irony is that you know in the theology, early theology of the resistance movement, the idea was that the great forces of history, the you know, the machine and agrarian developments really ruled out the individual. and how ironic it is that probably the most influential individual of the last 50 years

came out of that system and it was nelson mandela. >> rose: here's an excerpt from my 1993 conversation with nelson mandela which we will show in its entirety tomorrow night. help us understand what it was like for you. and how does a man maintain his strength, his beliefs, his integrity on an island where he's been sentenced to life in prison? >> there is nothing as inspiring as to know -- for which you have sacrificed -- one of the things that i will throw out 24 hours a day -- the ideal of liberation was much alive.

that our people inside the country -- that international community irrespective what the government -- fully supported the that was a source of tremendous inspiration. and -- very hard. and therefore we -- inside prison because of the knowledge that our -- and the possibility of coming back to play our part.

always it is possible and this sustained me. and also to share these experiences with a man or with me including many who -- >> rose: nelson mandela in a 1993 interview with me on this program. we'll have more on him tonight night. our program tonight continues with a conversation about the upcoming forum. he's here, he's the chairman of the saban capital group largest single shareholder of the spanish language media network univision which he's the shareholder. he's a strong supporter of the democratic party one of the largest individual donors. this weekend they will host the saban forum in washington.

president obama are among those and other subjects will be at the top of the agenda. i am pleased to have saban at this table for the first time. welcome. it's great to have you here. so let me talk about israel. it is said mentioning the relationship you had with these people that netanyahu in his pierce opposition to this interim agreement between iran and the united states is not doing a great service to the united states. and the effort to find some possibility of going from an interim agreement to a final agreement. >> the prime minister is doing well. to keep the issue of iran top of the agenda. there could have been other ways to do it.

so i'm not suggesting that he pick the best way. but that's the way he picked. but it's semantics. because the fundamentals are the following. president obama made it very clear iran will not have nuclear weapons. that's his red line. prime minister benjamin netanyahu said iran will not have nuclear weapons capability. that's his red line. but the difference between those two creates a certain gap. is that gap fundamental? no. because the bottom line is the same. they have different red lines but they have the same bottom line. iran will not be a nuclear weapon country. and this is what we have to

remember. that israel and the united states are completely aligned on that issue. now there might be different paths to get to that result. and there might be disagreements along the way between friends. but the bottom line which is reese really -- which is really important in lifer is the ball line. >> rose: there are people who come to this table and make the following argument. why now. the reason the iranians are talking is because of the sanctions. why not pile on more sanctions so they will not make an interim agreement they'll say okay we can't live with these sanctions anymore. what is it you want. and therefore not only stop, freeze, begin to dismantle the centrifuges and that would be the result if you doubled up on the sanctions. >> the people that sift across the table from our negotiators from the free world negotiators

are idealouges is for the most part doesn't work. by the way, we had a screaming ahmadinejad and we have a smiling -- i don't know how different they are. what i think is that this agreement is both a good agreement and a bad agreement. i'm not saying this agreement is not perfect, i'm telling you it's also very good or very bad. in my view, it's binary. because it all depends on what happens at the end of the six months or if they extend it by an additional six months. if at the end of six months all the extension of six months there is an agreement that guarantees that iran for at least ten years is not such a

limit in time or whatever, whatever sanctions you apply, whatever inspectors you send is limited in time. but at least ten years will dismantle its nuclear capabilities. it was a great agreement. if there isn't such an agreement, it was a very bad agreement. nobody knows should we try? absolutely. we should absolutely try. and i think that the president did the right thing by agreeing, by reaching out and trying to make a deal. and i don't think that additional sanctions, i mean all those people that talk about additional sanctions are the same people who say sanctions don't work. these are the same people. so make up your mind. do they work or don't they work. >> rose: so what is the prime minister believe, i mean, you know the mind of the prime minister. you know israel politician, you know him and you know also people who are opponents of his. what do they think will come out

of this? and are they in the end prepared to give it a chance. >> well i can't speak for the prime minister. obviously i don't know what he thinks. >> rose: you don't know what he thinks. >> i spent time, you know, good quality time with the prime minister. and i can tell you what he said to me which is what he also said in public and he didn't go beyond that. i asked him point blank, do you really have the military capability to take out the iran nuclear facilities. >> rose: and he said. >> and he said i will tell you what i say all the time. how i get there is for me to know and for you to guess. and the bottom line is iran is not going to be nuclear. that's what he says. >> rose: there are many people who believe that they do not have the possibility to do anything other than delay it for six months or a year.

that's the possibility. that's the military potential they have. >> let me tell you something about the idea. in 1948, 500,000 jews were by seven arm eyes. we're sitting here with one of the most advanced military in the world. after seven wars which they want every single one of them. i don't know what they have or what they don't have. i do know that the israeli people and the jewish people around the world can rely on the idea that i know. >> rose: take that and go to this place. there's now israeli palestinian negotiates taking place and we know what the issues are, they have to do with territory, with the right of return, they have to do with jerusalem and they have to do with borders and in some cases they have to do with the jordan river. but the essential question is israel security. you just laid out the most important thing in israel's

security. it is what the israeli defense force has become. when will israel still secure enough so that it can make a kind of agreement so that it would ensure a two-state solution because many are arguing now that that ideal is slipping away because of demographics and other factors. >> it really is a very complicated issue. and when you ask me when will israel feel secure. you know, a statement by golda meier comes to mind when she said we will forgive you for killing our children. we will never forgive you for forcing us to kill yours. what i am trying to say to you is that israel has its hands outreaching for peace. not because there's a big love between the arabs and the jews

but because it's in israel's interest. and even hawks like prime minister netanyahu understands that, took it to heart, and against many in his own party it came out and said two states for two people. now the devil is in the details but in the name of the government of israel benjamin netanyahu -- >> rose: the president of the information the former president bill clinton the former secretary of state hillary clinton and most americans in the leadership, most believe that settlements and increasing settlements are not in the interest of finding an agreement between israelis and palestinians. where do you come down on that? and where do you come down on

sharing jerusalem as a capitol. >> you're asking my person opinion. >> rose: your personal opinion. >> my right wing hawkish friends are going to be very mad with me because i'm going to tell you that jerusalem is already divided. jews don't go to the arab sections or very rarely go and when they go they get stones thrown at them. so i believe the clinton parameters are the right parameters. 67 borders. >> rose: 67 borders. >> territory swaps. >> rose: not the same borders but the same equivalency. >> exactly 67 borders with territory swaps dividing jerusalem and finding some arrangement so that jews can go to the holiest place in the jewish religion. jews are not allowed to go to the temple mount because a

mosque is there. that's outrageous. places of worship should be open to everybody who wants to worship. but they do not allow jews to go out of respect for the muslims. tell me another country that behaves like that. >> but your argument is with the government of israel more than it is with the palestinians. >> not true. >> rose: it is true. >> no. >> rose: think of it. you're prepared essentially the mal stinks today would accept the deal that president clinton offered. the government of israel today would not accept the deal of today's government that president clinton offered. now when he offered it, yasser arafat turned it down and some days later he regretted that and then he died. >> you know who told him not to accept the deal? even though he changed his mind since maybe. >> rose: right. >> he's the one -- >> rose: he's head of the

palestinian. >> he told are arafat not to accept the deal. >> rose: you are arguing for a deal that the palestinians would accept. >> i don't know that for a fact. do you know that for a fact? >> rose: in some cases they have said that and we can find out by asking would they accept the deal offered by president clinton at camp david. >> yes. look, for the israelis we will do that at the forum with pleasure. look, for the israelis, i should say for the majority of israelis, of course there are right wing hawks who don't agree with that position. but for the majority -- >> rose: when you say right wing hawks do you mean prime minister netanyahu. >> no. >> rose: how would you characterize him. >> i think he was a prime wing

hawk. look, i saw a tape of benjamin netanyahu maybe 25, 30 years old when he said there is no need for palestinian state. jordan is a palestinian state. he's come a long way. let's give him some credit for that. he's come a long way. so for the israelis and the majority of the israelis i should say it is all about three things. security, security and security. >> rose: exactly. and you just laid out to me what in fact, if you look at i ray lay prime minister the one person who believed that israel could take care of its security was ravin. he went to as you low and signed an agreement and shook hands with yasser arafat because he began to believe it was in

israel's interest to have an agreement with the palestinians as hard as it was for him to accept it and to shake hands. >> very hard for him. yes. >> rose: to avoid killing of his race. >> yes. when they was standing in the front of the whitehouse, he turned to perez to say you go shake his hands now. >> rose: that's the strength of the defense force force. >> that is true. >> rose: everybody understands israel's security interest is understandable and significant because if you look at the middle east, israel is sitting in the middle of a number of countries that are hostile or a number of organized groups like hezbollah and hamas. >> well. >> rose: and iran. >> two factors have changed since those days since 1995. fact number one, rockets. they didn't use rockets in those

days. and if i address that for a second, the number one threat in the event of a pull out is over the ridge where they can shoot rockets at the airport. they don't need to shoot the 10,000 or 100,000 or 50,000 it doesn't matter. all they need to do is shoot two rockets a day into the airport. israel comes into a screeching halt. and the second thing that has changed is terrorism now has a different face than it had then. then they threw stones. now they blow up school buses. that's what they do. these two facts, if they exist in 95, believe me rabin's position, he's the one who said not to give back the jordan

valley. he's the one who insisted -- >> rose: i'm not sure netanyahu wants to give back the jordan valley either. >> but rabin is called the man of peace and he says do not give back the jordan valley. >> rose: these conversations you and i are having now have been had in the middle east and washington and in other capitols. and the question is do you believe the israelis have confidence in president obama? >> very good question. can we separate the people from the various factions of the government. >> rose: answer it the way you'd like. >> any way i like? >> rose: yes. >> i think that when the moment of truth comes, president obama has the ability to build confidence within israelis. >> rose: when you say that you suggest it's not there now. >> well 77% of israelis at the

moment based on the latest polls think that this nuclear deal that was done with iran is a terrible deal for israel and does not preclude -- >> rose: that's one thing. but therefore do they believe that they can't depend on the united states? >> no leader in his right mind would ever outsource the security and the existential fact to another country no matter how close. no matter how close. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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